10-28-2013, 11:08 PM
Sorry about the brevity of my initial reply. I wanted to get a quick answer out early on but I also wanted to give a proper response when time permitted. I'll go through the entire thread and answer as much as I can and then give some more general information at the end.
Your main point here seems to be that the Chit-Chat Thread was harmless and promoted discussion but the issue is that it really didn't. I tried, on multiple occasions, to keep up with that thread but when you sign in after a day and there are 6 new pages of posts, some of which are small discussions and most of which are completely random, it's easier to just turn around and head somewhere else. As Dazz mentioned, the goal is to keep new members around and when most of the activity on the site is taking place in a thread that even a regular can't keep up with, there's a problem.
The issue of clutter is actually the solution. Yes, more threads means more to sift through but it is also much easier to find something you're interested in when you can scan a list of titles instead of dig through pages upon pages of posts. More popular threads will still sit at the top and will still be easy to find. This applies to using the search function as well - searching against threads is much more efficient than searching a single thread against posts.
Don't get me wrong, I get where you're coming from. It's convenient to have a single place to post everything but things get lost very quickly in that format and it stifles discussion, for the most part. Think about it - that thread had just under 3,000 replies. Most people looking at that would assume that they could never catch up and simply ignore it. The obvious counter to this point is that you don't need to read every post since it's scattered conversation but that is exactly my issue - there's not one topic, one discussion, one train of thought and that makes it extremely difficult to follow.
I understand where you're coming from here and I think it's a commonly held view but it's a flawed way of looking at things. The Playground is really for random stuff in general - things that might not generate full discussion, for chains of gifs and forum games. The actual boards are for discussion of everything else. There is no rule related to how serious a topic has to be before it warrants its own thread. If you have something you want to talk about, even if it's seemingly random, then make a thread. As far as I can tell, this isn't restrictive at all - casual chat is still possible, and even more encouraged in this format as a conversation usually means you have a specific topic in mind.
Not everyone reacts the same way. Some people will show up, love that format, and jump right in. The majority will not though, and that's what we're concerned about. My goal is to make this a fun, inviting, comfortable place for everyone but you can't always please everyone so you settle for pleasing the majority and that's what we're trying to do with this change. Nobody ever said that the members and staff here weren't welcoming - on the contrary, I think we have a wonderful community here but the majority of that community's activity was happening in a single thread and that is intimidating for new members. Whether intentional or not, it still alienates a large percentage of people that haven't been around since the beginning.
Hopefully, quite a few. As I stated above, it's actually much easier to scan for interesting topics from a list of titles than from pages of posts. My hope is that with more focused topics, there will be less random gibberish to sift through and you'll know right away whether or not you want to read and/or participate in a given thread.
This may be one of the first times it was brought up publicly but these types of posts have come up in discussion between Dazz and I quite frequently so we've been thinking about figuring out how to deal with them for a while.
This was sent to me via PM but I wanted to address the answers out in the open. I already asked and was given the okay to post the PM here.
He brings up some important points that I wanted to touch on specifically. First, the need for this change to be gradual. I completely agree and didn't intend to just flip a switch and start handing out warnings for not following rules that you guys can't actually even see yet. My original plan was to announce these changes and then close the Chit-Chat Thread on the 1st but Dazz went ahead and did it early. No harm done but it just means the explanation comes after the fact instead of before.
Next, what will constitute spam and what will be okay. First, just understand that we're not outright forbidding gifs and videos. While I'd rather see them incorporated into actual posts, if an opportunity presents itself to use one that really is the perfect response or somehow actually contributes to the thread, you're still welcome to post it.
Finally, the issue of staff contributing to the problem and/or ignoring the new rules. I'll say right now that all staff members are expected to follow the same rules as everyone else and that won't change here. Moderation actions are generally taken at the discretion of the staff member in question so there is definitely some personal judgement happening but you can always contact us if you feel something was done unfairly. This community has already shown itself quite capable of that and generally polices itself pretty well anyway.
Now, with all of that said, I'd just like to share my own views on the subject. Personally, I felt that the Chit-Chat thread was a detriment to the community. It didn't really encourage discussion, for the most part. To me, it seemed more like barely legal spamming, especially when you factor in all of the image and/or one-word type responses.
As I mentioned above, the goal is to make as many people happy as possible which is why I'm trying to be as transparent about this decision as I can. I'm sorry if you really did enjoy that thread. To those of you most greatly affected by this change, I hope you'll stick around and work within the new format. For those who have accepted the change already, I thank you for your cooperation.
Now, that leaves just one last thing - the new rules. Like I said above, I don't intend to make this a black and white situation so these rules, especially those regarding spam, will be up for discussion right here. I'll be writing up a formal thread and posting it in place of the current one (something I've been meaning to do for months...) but they won't go into effect until we've had a chance to discuss and possibly, based on that discussion, modify them.
If there's a silver lining for everyone here, it's that situations like these show that you guys really do care and I think I can speak for the entire staff in saying that we all appreciate that fact.
If anyone has any further questions or concerns, please feel free to voice them here and I'll address them as I can.
(10-28-2013, 12:41 PM)MexicanAnime Wrote: [ -> ]Pre Face - At first when I saw that the Chit Chat thread was locked, I was going to attempt to make around ten threads with a different subject. Such topics would only include short posts such as "I had a good burger", "Work was bad today", "I found some money!", "Time to do homework", and so on to prove my point. While I still humor the idea, the admins, mods, and members have done no ill will, so I decided to abandon the plan and to avoid being snarky or snide. I decided to include this little section as I was pretty excited about it. However, I will attack the issue with a more direct, formal, and civilized way so that every one can give their opinion.
Let me first say that I respect the mods and admins of the site and they're pretty good with keeping this place in tact. That being said, the latest action to lock the chat thread is something I really don't approve of and that I would like reversed. Personally, I believe it was unneeded and unnecessary for something so harmless to the forum and the members. To be frank, I think it will do the opposite of what was intended, which was not a bad thing really.
As a moderator of two active forums and a person who browses many different forums, the most active thread is usually the Casual Talk/Chit Chat/Current Thoughts thread, which I'm sure everyone here knows. What's the appeal of this topic? Why do so many people love it? Well, within the limit of not posting a bunch of spam, one can just talk about whatever comes to mind or those little daily events in their life. There's no fear of "derailing" a topic if a conversations is switched and the whole thread is usually very relaxed. Sometimes someone may bring up a certain video game or show and there might be conversation about this. Honestly, there's no problem with this as can just do little chatter and be done with it, and then move on. If the chat were to be taken away, then the option you suggested would result in many threads over the smallest shows/topics/discussions which would clutter the forum. There would also be less incentive to check and comment as they would have to get through all the topics just to see it. While I understand not wanting to have restrict the forum to only a few threads, doing this will cause just as worse damage and have the same effect.
The chit chat threads binds everyone together (including the animu obsessed nut like me) rather than dividing them off into certain sections of the forums. This connection between the members is what makes it special and if this were to be taken away, part of that would be lost and some may eventually lose interest. Part of this is going off my experience with another forum where this happened, so it's not exactly unheard of, no matter how corny it sounded.
If someone wants to talk in depth about a certain topic, then they can feel free to make it still without having the chat thread. While I understand that the forums have not been as active, can you truly say that the fault of it is due to just one thread, let alone a harmless one like this that's on other boards and has done nothing but add conversation? For those who feel otherwise, feel free to correct me, but there's never really been huge problems on this forum, especially compared to all the sites I go on. The chat thread is welcoming and nice, which many newcomers first check out and is what has a high chance of making them stay. There's no conflict in the thread and as said before, only does good which is what really makes me wonder why the thread was locked in the first place. I can honestly say that I probably wouldn't check the forums as much if that were to happen and I'm sure a few others may feel that way. I don't mean this as a threat as if the thread were to remain unlocked I would still post around, but it wouldn't be as frequent due to the sillyness and the fun of just chating would be gone.
Finally, let me ask a question to the admins, mods, and members. Would you prefer the site to have more posts and topics in the loss of the current members having less fun and enjoyment?
If you feel otherwise or just want to share your opinion on the matter, go on ahead.
Your main point here seems to be that the Chit-Chat Thread was harmless and promoted discussion but the issue is that it really didn't. I tried, on multiple occasions, to keep up with that thread but when you sign in after a day and there are 6 new pages of posts, some of which are small discussions and most of which are completely random, it's easier to just turn around and head somewhere else. As Dazz mentioned, the goal is to keep new members around and when most of the activity on the site is taking place in a thread that even a regular can't keep up with, there's a problem.
The issue of clutter is actually the solution. Yes, more threads means more to sift through but it is also much easier to find something you're interested in when you can scan a list of titles instead of dig through pages upon pages of posts. More popular threads will still sit at the top and will still be easy to find. This applies to using the search function as well - searching against threads is much more efficient than searching a single thread against posts.
Don't get me wrong, I get where you're coming from. It's convenient to have a single place to post everything but things get lost very quickly in that format and it stifles discussion, for the most part. Think about it - that thread had just under 3,000 replies. Most people looking at that would assume that they could never catch up and simply ignore it. The obvious counter to this point is that you don't need to read every post since it's scattered conversation but that is exactly my issue - there's not one topic, one discussion, one train of thought and that makes it extremely difficult to follow.
(10-28-2013, 01:33 PM)Mass Distraction Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest I never ever check the playground section. I much prefer to talk about random shizz in one thread and keep my actual ideas and discussions for more in-depth threads. I'm here for the community for the most part and it's kinda sad to not be able to casually chat with other people. Restricting the casual discussion has already killed one community I was on.
I was more inclined to discuss random and unnecessary stuff on the chat thread. I see actual topics as places for more deeper discussion that just random talk. Then there's the fact that often times people will get off-topic. Then someone comes and tells people to stay on topic and make a thread for that other discussion that was started. The same happens again and again and all I end up doing is skipping from thread to thread. This is my opinion and I'm sticking with it.
I understand where you're coming from here and I think it's a commonly held view but it's a flawed way of looking at things. The Playground is really for random stuff in general - things that might not generate full discussion, for chains of gifs and forum games. The actual boards are for discussion of everything else. There is no rule related to how serious a topic has to be before it warrants its own thread. If you have something you want to talk about, even if it's seemingly random, then make a thread. As far as I can tell, this isn't restrictive at all - casual chat is still possible, and even more encouraged in this format as a conversation usually means you have a specific topic in mind.
(10-28-2013, 01:49 PM)MexicanAnime Wrote: [ -> ]Members posting in chats that were many pages long is not a problem and I have seen that with this forum. When a new member joins, they can enter the Game Discussion or Chit Chat thread and already fit in with the discussion and the members. While this community is pretty close, I don't see why you're worrying about members here doing that as mostly everyone is welcoming and don't act very "cliquy". For my proof on this, all one has to do is check the different threads to see that both members and mods welcome newcomers in a friendly way without making them feel like outsiders.
Not everyone reacts the same way. Some people will show up, love that format, and jump right in. The majority will not though, and that's what we're concerned about. My goal is to make this a fun, inviting, comfortable place for everyone but you can't always please everyone so you settle for pleasing the majority and that's what we're trying to do with this change. Nobody ever said that the members and staff here weren't welcoming - on the contrary, I think we have a wonderful community here but the majority of that community's activity was happening in a single thread and that is intimidating for new members. Whether intentional or not, it still alienates a large percentage of people that haven't been around since the beginning.
(10-28-2013, 02:08 PM)CosmykTheDolfyn Wrote: [ -> ]Here is one issue that I have: How many new threads will be created because of this?
I'd much rather go through 6 pages in a single thread of random gibberish than 6 separate threads of random gibberish.
I'll admit, if there are more than two pages of unread threads when I log on, I don't read a single one. It's just too much to bother with, and I generally log off. If the number of new threads increases exponentially due to this, you may be seeing less of me, and other people...
In my general experience, without such a general thread, that is exactly what happens, and it has made me lose interest in a forum before.
But, for now, I guess we can just sit back and see what happens. If the site and forums benefit, great! Leave it. If nothing really changes, leave it! No real big reason to fuss about it.
Hopefully, quite a few. As I stated above, it's actually much easier to scan for interesting topics from a list of titles than from pages of posts. My hope is that with more focused topics, there will be less random gibberish to sift through and you'll know right away whether or not you want to read and/or participate in a given thread.
(10-28-2013, 02:40 PM)CosmykTheDolfyn Wrote: [ -> ]All right, fine. No more dumb gifs. Since you're the first person to ever actually say anything. Generally, I just post those after something I figured sounded thoughtful as a laugh. Ironically, I hate both Tumblr and Twitter. And I have working on submitting more facts recently. Trying to get several new ones every few days.
This may be one of the first times it was brought up publicly but these types of posts have come up in discussion between Dazz and I quite frequently so we've been thinking about figuring out how to deal with them for a while.
This was sent to me via PM but I wanted to address the answers out in the open. I already asked and was given the okay to post the PM here.
CosmykTheDolfyn Wrote:I had wanted to post some of this in the thread about the chit chat thread, but figured it would simply work better as a PM.
I am excited as to what is happening. But I will say, the implementation may need to be gradual. The reason I feel that way is that not everyone will agree to what is or isn't spammy. GIFs and video for no reason? Ok, I can see that. Can't say I've never posted that either, but at least I kept my random gifs after a long, on topic post. I'll give you my personal guarantee though that you won't see any more stupid gifs/videos from me.
But what will happen if a Mod steps in and declares a thread too generic and shuts it down? The real issue here is that some people have stated that some of the mods themselves post things and create new threads that are "spammy" and generic. I can see a real finger pointing contest going on. I don't want to see a bunch of posts "Wait, he can post this and I can't" nonsense. That could kill this forum quicker than anything.
Now, I'll admit, the chances of this are slim. I doubt it will ever happen, but the potential IS there. I hope that you and all the site staff keep this in mind. Be firm and consistent when deleting/altering post/threads that are spammy, and this should all go smoothly. Thank you for all your hard work at keeping all of this running!
He brings up some important points that I wanted to touch on specifically. First, the need for this change to be gradual. I completely agree and didn't intend to just flip a switch and start handing out warnings for not following rules that you guys can't actually even see yet. My original plan was to announce these changes and then close the Chit-Chat Thread on the 1st but Dazz went ahead and did it early. No harm done but it just means the explanation comes after the fact instead of before.
Next, what will constitute spam and what will be okay. First, just understand that we're not outright forbidding gifs and videos. While I'd rather see them incorporated into actual posts, if an opportunity presents itself to use one that really is the perfect response or somehow actually contributes to the thread, you're still welcome to post it.
Finally, the issue of staff contributing to the problem and/or ignoring the new rules. I'll say right now that all staff members are expected to follow the same rules as everyone else and that won't change here. Moderation actions are generally taken at the discretion of the staff member in question so there is definitely some personal judgement happening but you can always contact us if you feel something was done unfairly. This community has already shown itself quite capable of that and generally polices itself pretty well anyway.
Now, with all of that said, I'd just like to share my own views on the subject. Personally, I felt that the Chit-Chat thread was a detriment to the community. It didn't really encourage discussion, for the most part. To me, it seemed more like barely legal spamming, especially when you factor in all of the image and/or one-word type responses.
As I mentioned above, the goal is to make as many people happy as possible which is why I'm trying to be as transparent about this decision as I can. I'm sorry if you really did enjoy that thread. To those of you most greatly affected by this change, I hope you'll stick around and work within the new format. For those who have accepted the change already, I thank you for your cooperation.
Now, that leaves just one last thing - the new rules. Like I said above, I don't intend to make this a black and white situation so these rules, especially those regarding spam, will be up for discussion right here. I'll be writing up a formal thread and posting it in place of the current one (something I've been meaning to do for months...) but they won't go into effect until we've had a chance to discuss and possibly, based on that discussion, modify them.
If there's a silver lining for everyone here, it's that situations like these show that you guys really do care and I think I can speak for the entire staff in saying that we all appreciate that fact.
If anyone has any further questions or concerns, please feel free to voice them here and I'll address them as I can.
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