VGFacts

Saw it coming, just I was surprised to see it now then last year when the game was being heavily promoted and being the talk of September. You know though, I kinda miss seeing Jack Thompson attempting to get games banned. His arguments were so bad it was hilarious.

(12-05-2014, 06:41 PM)Hexadecimal Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2014, 06:03 PM)Psychospacecow Wrote: [ -> ]I think we're misconstruing this somewhat with the use of a blanket term. Its not like this is the first time this has happened to a medium.

People have been killed for their ideas.
Music has been censored or destroyed for its ideas.
Books were and still are burned for their ideas.
The arts have been censored and destroyed for their ideas.
TV and movies have been censored and shoved into hard places for their ideas.
We are in no way any different.

I don't think its fair to attribute these actions to "feminists". No, there is a bigger agenda here and it doesn't pertain exclusively to this group.

Thank you. I was getting madder and madder the more I was reading in this thread.

I understand that people are angry and think it's silly that this game has been banned, and I knew people would want to form a lynch mob against all feminists over it. If they'd just said they game was pulled for disturbing content or violence in general, there would never be this big of an uproar. I never saw anyone freak out over the numerous other games on the list I posted.

There are women out there who refer to themselves as feminists that hate men and think they're inferior. This is wrong, and it's not what the majority of us stand for. Yes, I think of myself as a feminist. Hate me now if you want to. I'm not a big fan of Feminist Frequency at all, but she made a wonderful point with two videos she made. Something visual is much stronger than anything I can say and I think it will shed some light on why this situation is so touchy. It's focus is more on how women are used as background object, but brings up a violence issue as well. There's a big difference between the types of violence used again women compared to men. 

Do we have to throw Anita Sarkeesian into the conversation very time something like this comes up now? That shit's getting really tired.

I usually stay out of these kinds of topics because I don't want to have enemies due to things like this, (albeit the post I made was in response to CLXCool and I just wanted to say that they've been know as Feminazi's to some people due to the minority somehow having the vocal majority and they are the ones that hate men and such.) so I just wanna say that guys, don't try to say anything you might regret later on.

It'd be horrible to say something that seems right to you, but to everyone else it just seems horrible and wrong and people will hate you for it, I'm regretting what I said to CLXCool and it wasn't even that bad (as far as I see it), I was just stating the facts from what I've seen, and I wish I didn't because this is a touchy subject and I don't want people to hate me for it.

Over my video game taste, sure. But not something like this.

(12-06-2014, 02:44 AM)RepentantSky Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2014, 06:41 PM)Hexadecimal Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2014, 06:03 PM)Psychospacecow Wrote: [ -> ]I think we're misconstruing this somewhat with the use of a blanket term. Its not like this is the first time this has happened to a medium.

People have been killed for their ideas.
Music has been censored or destroyed for its ideas.
Books were and still are burned for their ideas.
The arts have been censored and destroyed for their ideas.
TV and movies have been censored and shoved into hard places for their ideas.
We are in no way any different.

I don't think its fair to attribute these actions to "feminists". No, there is a bigger agenda here and it doesn't pertain exclusively to this group.

Thank you. I was getting madder and madder the more I was reading in this thread.

I understand that people are angry and think it's silly that this game has been banned, and I knew people would want to form a lynch mob against all feminists over it. If they'd just said they game was pulled for disturbing content or violence in general, there would never be this big of an uproar. I never saw anyone freak out over the numerous other games on the list I posted.

There are women out there who refer to themselves as feminists that hate men and think they're inferior. This is wrong, and it's not what the majority of us stand for. Yes, I think of myself as a feminist. Hate me now if you want to. I'm not a big fan of Feminist Frequency at all, but she made a wonderful point with two videos she made. Something visual is much stronger than anything I can say and I think it will shed some light on why this situation is so touchy. It's focus is more on how women are used as background object, but brings up a violence issue as well. There's a big difference between the types of violence used again women compared to men. 

Do we have to throw Anita Sarkeesian into the conversation very time something like this comes up now? That shit's getting really tired.

So is "Teh womenz r recking our vidja games!!!1"

As I said, I don't normally like to bring her up, but she hit the nail on the head with these two videos, which I'm sure you didn't even bother to watch. I didn't want to drag this thread off topic, but I really felt I had to say something to try and make people understand, especially with all the feminist bashing. 

You know what's tiring?

Having to play 20 questions every time I say i'm a fan of something that's not considered "for girls", whether it be video games, horror movies, or numerous other things.

Being considered an object as opposed to a human. (See the first video)

Being harassed in online games once someone finds out i'm a woman.

Oh boy, not Anita. While I do agree on some points in the videos, the rest of them are just...uhh, no.

Quote:Being considered an object as opposed to a human. (See the first video)

In the video it says that women, who are strippers, dancers, etc., are considered an object. I think that a grown, adult woman can make her own decision. And if a woman decides she wants to be a dancer to make money, then go ahead, it's a job.
If we go and put that example in general, then all of us are objects for doing things for money.

Other things like women in racing games. Go to google and type racing girls. Those game designers are full of crap and not trying to emulate the real world where most of the audience are male.

It's a long, long discussion and I am not trying to insult feminists here. When I said "feminazi" I am refering to the man-haters that just simply are exagerating things.

I want to just say I don't think anyone here is actually trying to blame all women for this. That would be hypocritical to do. What I and many others are blaming are these people who use "feminism" as a guise for their own moral agenda. I as much as any other want equality. The problem here is that they are censoring a video game, and taking away people's right to choose, based on lies and mis-information.

I agree women's representation in all media has been.... spotty at best. While we're seeing many more female protagonists in games, It's still a boys club and that needs to change. The argument here was never really about feminism in games or anything of the sort. Whether or not the group who made the petition are actual feminists or not doesn't matter. The fact is that these people got a game removed from store shelves under the guise of women's rights, basing their entire agrument on lies, mis-information, and forgetting that the game has an 18+ rating on it. In Australia, unlike the ESRB and PEGI, their ratings are handled by the government, meaning it is flat-out illegal to sell this game to a minor.

Now, I can't claim to understand how women in video games feel about the community surrounding them, or Anita's videos, but as a person of color, I personally don't like to marginalized by Anita and people like her. But that's just me. How others feel is up to them.

With all this talk of female rights the whole point of the absolute ridiculousness of GTAV being banned for violence against women specifically is kind of lost. I mean come on, we all gotta agree that it's retarded and everyone who signed that petition must be a bit loco in the ol' coco.

Wow. This taken a strong turn of events in terms of topic. While on the subject. If people don't like it, they really shouldn't look at it. We shouldn't blame all the women in the world. Not all of them are bad people. I'm all game for all equality, but there should be a fine line on the actions that extremists(like the ones who got GTA banned in down under). People in this world really need to look at the fact that not everything is real, which includes video games. For granted. Its got the 18+ rating on the cover for crying out loud, so that should be an obvious hint that it ain't a kids game. 

If there was a gaming studio(or any gaming studio) that made straight up female leads with good gaming. Without having to go out of their way just to make it appealing for 'just boys'.  Maybe there would be less of a predicament for all of those women who complain about the lack of 'positive' things for females for gaming. Besides. Anita ain't always right. Like The Antagonist pointed out. If a grown woman decides to become a stripper, dancers, etc. Its their choice on what they plan on doing to make money. Even if the public community thinks it sets a 'bad example'. Its their loss. I even spoken to a few female friends of mine off of the boards. I spoke about GTA, and all they said about this was its a load of BS. Big time.

(12-06-2014, 08:33 PM)Mass Distraction Wrote: [ -> ]With all this talk of female rights the whole point of the absolute ridiculousness of GTAV being banned for violence against women specifically is kind of lost. I mean come on, we all gotta agree that it's retarded and everyone who signed that petition must be a bit loco in the ol' coco.

The world is filled with nutty people Mass. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people who signed that petition are either the same person, or people who are just shooting down Rockstar(along with their games) for years now.

(12-06-2014, 10:38 AM)Hexadecimal Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-06-2014, 02:44 AM)RepentantSky Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2014, 06:41 PM)Hexadecimal Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you. I was getting madder and madder the more I was reading in this thread.

I understand that people are angry and think it's silly that this game has been banned, and I knew people would want to form a lynch mob against all feminists over it. If they'd just said they game was pulled for disturbing content or violence in general, there would never be this big of an uproar. I never saw anyone freak out over the numerous other games on the list I posted.

There are women out there who refer to themselves as feminists that hate men and think they're inferior. This is wrong, and it's not what the majority of us stand for. Yes, I think of myself as a feminist. Hate me now if you want to. I'm not a big fan of Feminist Frequency at all, but she made a wonderful point with two videos she made. Something visual is much stronger than anything I can say and I think it will shed some light on why this situation is so touchy. It's focus is more on how women are used as background object, but brings up a violence issue as well. There's a big difference between the types of violence used again women compared to men. 

Do we have to throw Anita Sarkeesian into the conversation very time something like this comes up now? That shit's getting really tired.

So is "Teh womenz r recking our vidja games!!!1"

As I said, I don't normally like to bring her up, but she hit the nail on the head with these two videos, which I'm sure you didn't even bother to watch. I didn't want to drag this thread off topic, but I really felt I had to say something to try and make people understand, especially with all the feminist bashing. 

I'm actually in full support of Anita but having her in conversations not directly about her guarantees the conversion will switch from it's intended purpose. You are better off just saying what you want without using her should you actually want a conversation to stay on topic.

Fuck this, I'm done with this forum.

I think the real problem is that NOTHING ever good comes out of Australia. Like this, it is pulling us apart. Do not let Australia pull us apart.

(12-05-2014, 07:25 PM)Beware of Cuccos Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2014, 06:41 PM)Hexadecimal Wrote: [ -> ]I was getting madder and madder the more I was reading in this thread.

Me too.

Everything Hex said is true. We, true feminists, are not about men hating. In fact, feminism at it's core is about equality. That's it. We just want to be equal to you guys. All across the board, too- we want to be equal with everything, from equal pay, to getting respect (everywhere- form in the workplace, to in the home, to in-game).

Please, guys, do not hate us a whole. It is very easy for us female gamers to hate y'all as a whole, but we don't. So many of you harass us in-game, and even on our youtubes or facebook pages. But we don't hate y'all as a whole. We don't call you all "neckbeards". So please, please do not lump all us feminists together.

There are so many , MANY problems to even begin even talk about that I'd have to make an entire forum just for it. It goes into so many related topics like: 
Video games are art - video games are art, therefore subjective, therefore criticism is holds no bearing on the product. By this I mean, whether you find the game/person/entity offensive or not is your opinion to free express. However it doesn't give you the right to alter forms of art to your liking. The world doesn't work like there. If we alter art, then we may as well delete the rape scene from or put trousers over Michael Angelos David since his dick is hanging out(See The Simpsons episode "Itchy and Scratchy and Marge").
Men in the minority - Those that do harass are in the minority.
Male sexism/challenging masculinity - When sexism is in effect, both parties are hurt. When females are told that "they can't do this", or "This is for(generally) for boys", not only do females get hurt by the statement but men also. For when a female steps into the scene and destroys a male scene, men feel less "masculine". Trust, even I had this mentality "Oh man I got beaten by a girl". Then instant rage. That being said I was about 5 so... yeah. Some people can't accept that women can achieve and even be better than males in certain areas. Because of this, a lot of men feel challenge and lash out. They'll dismiss the hard work a female puts in to get to where she is(see the working world/male and female jealously/how boys and girls are told to be a certain way from a young age etc). 
People only care about the extremes - In the case of feminism. People look at this crazy woman and assume that this is what feminism is about. When it's not. The same can be said for Mens Rights but you look on Reddit and the Mens Rights section is a cesspool of shit. That's not what the idea is. That's the stupidity of the extreme and people giving it attention. 
All [insert group] are the same - This something I hate a lot. The assumption that one person represents an entire group of think they know that group because they are part of said group. For example a female blogger that says why Dragons Crowns boobs are shameful to women. Why Bayonetta is sexist. Why Killer is Dead is misogynistic. This goes under the assumption that as a women you wouldn't and shouldn't be able to enjoy this. That no female will find these games fun. When based on my own friends personal experiences and how they feel, that it's not the case. You can find plenty of personal experiences made on females interacting with these games and not having problem. It's to assume that everyone within the [human category] is the same. The same can be said for all black people being offended and using terms to say how all black people feel. As said as it sounds, you'd be surprised by how diverse so many people are. 

(12-05-2014, 07:35 PM)Psychospacecow Wrote: [ -> ]but I am a neckbeard...

Really, I find it a shame more than anything else both for the obvious and the fact that it hinders games themselves.

Really, I wish this just wasn't a thing.

It brings in such a level of smugness that I find to be a problem. It's the way that people praise Ellie and Tess in The Last of Us or Alyx Vance in Half-life yet shun Bayonetta because she's a bad representation of women. It means we have less thought of creativity put into media and instead are giving praise to "gritty, hard hitting characters because....well because". While Bayonetta, Lara Croft, Zero Suit Samus can be shunned because they're awesome character but have a level of sex appeal, humour, sillyness, flair, upbeat attitude, charming,  that the others don't. As I said before, it's an inadvertent way of shaming good looking women. "You can't be good looking AND kick arse". 

(12-06-2014, 02:44 AM)RepentantSky Wrote: [ -> ]Do we have to throw Anita Sarkeesian into the conversation very time something like this comes up now? That shit's getting really tired.

As much as I think Anita is generally uneducated about what she's talking, she managed to get an important issue into the spotlight which I can't fault her for. There's nothing wrong in wanting to make media more inclusive to all types of people which, at her core, I think Anita was going for. However her delivery of the some videos is so off the mark she really is just losing what her initial point was. Anita is a very key important person in this. 

I'm not going to dissect her videos but the second video posted is already a perfect example of why she is wrong in cases. 
Something I firmly believe in is "Content is everything". Context context context. The video starts with Anita using the clip of a man (from Dragon Age) saying "Grab and whore and have a good time".

Context is everything:
1) If you actually play Dragon Age: Origins you'll know that Vaughan Kendells is massive dick. He's someone that is mean, vile, rude, looks down on people and will trample on anyone with no remorse. He has no sympathy or affection for others. He is the definition of an arsehole. 
2) The scene in which he says that statement isn't a one-off he says this kind of shit frequently.
3) he generally think nothing of women in general and is infact, a serial rapist. 
4) Watch the entire scene? 

I say context is everything because:
You have to look at what the meaning of the scene before using it out of context to form a point. It's because of Anitas use of random clips that it give the illusion that this is how games are.
In the case of Dragon Age: Origin, the character was written that way. He is dislikeable and that was the writers intention (Keep in mind that one of the main writers for Dragon Age: Origins is Jennifer Hepler). 
It's also worth pointing out that not decent human being actually find these types of actions and saying good. You don't have male "gamers" saying "yeah I see no problem with this". People generally hate this type of offensiveness. I personally hate the things that he says because it's disgusting. You will not find any decent male saying they agree with what he said. 
Lastly you have to remember this is story telling and a work of fiction. It doesn't make a statement to real life human beings. In the same way an actor doesn't generally believe in what the villain says. You have to seperate what fiction from reality which Anita doesn't do. 

There's so much more but only 5 seconds in and you can see why I can't find Anita worthy of her cause. She has point yet isn't able to get that point across. As I said, 'context is everything'. 

Personally I think it's videos like this which set the gaming industry back. It's the same as "why we can't have nice things". We can't have a sexy English 500 year old witch summon demon frogs from her hair because it's apparently sexist. We can't have Watch_Dogs showing domestic violence because people like Anita dismiss them as sideshow attractions to which us male gamer have a wanking session over. We can't talk about the discussion of implied rape because then it's another point to add to feminist lists. 
It sets us back because we aren't allowed to have games talking and tackling very much serious issues. If it's not about serious issues like domestic violence then we can't have the carefree fun of Bayonetta because then that's sexist, despite the fact many females have written articles on Bayonetta being empowering more than anything.

As I said before, there's nothing wrong with Anita Sarkessian as it's her opinion and I have to give her a lot of respect for making these video and raising an important issue. Not only that but, while I disagree with her(not all the time), there are those men and females that praise the videos for being able to speak out for them. Finally giving a group that hates the tropes a voice, which again, is something I can respect. She has given a group a voice. This forum alone has shown that it's important to certain members which just adds to why these videos discussing these tropes develops us as a people. We get better games, gaming becomes more inclusive and can be enjoyed by many.
However she should study more in-depth into she's talking about first. Gaming isn't as linear as Anita makes it out to be. I rarely see any mention of games outside of the obvious ones like Assassins Creed. Howabout praising female fighters(Chun-li, Asuka Kazama)? Just saying it'd be nice to really see Anita reach out in games and genre because she's on the right tracks.
Anita isn't out to take out video games away.

 What I'm not saying is that she's entirely wrong or that she should stop because, it's her opinion and she's open to free express it. However on the other end it's the men who make the situation worse by not understanding what the opposition says. "Some bitch on YouTube is criticising my gaming hobby, fuck her". Down vote. Rather than going "well what is the point of the video and does it work? Are the points valid? What evidence is there to backup the claims". Obviously that's never going to happen what with dickhead movements like GamerGate being around but yeah. This goes for argument in general. Understanding the opposition is a better way of counter arguing or even changing your mind. 

As a male I'll never understand that feeling, but if it's giving people the courage to talk about this, then more power to her. It's not something for people to give up on, but to be absorbed and developed on.
As I said at the beginning, it doesn't benefit either side.

Edit: Wow WTF happened?