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Mighty No. 9 Delayed, again - Printable Version

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RE: Mighty No. 9 Delayed, again - RepentantSky - 01-29-2016

(01-28-2016, 04:04 PM)BumblebeeCody Wrote: As I said before, shit happens. When working on software, stuff comes up. Stuff that has pretty bad effects, like glitches which can result in even bigger problems.
We're at a point now where video games are constantly being released as buggy, broken and often not even working at launch. We've seen them time after time with games with huge budgets and yet even as something as simple as Ubisofts (shitty attempt at) Tetris can be an epic fail.
People kickstarted this game and in return want to see that game finally come out, but if you backed a game and found it had a serious online issue, whether you care about it or not, then people would be complaining about how they "took our money and cut corners. Where did the money go?" etc
So....people want a game to come out very quickly but somehow not be buggy? Take it from someone who does programming as a career and works on software development, shit is nowhere near as straight forward. Even I have had to inform a company that we've had to delay a project due to an issue. Even having to go out physically to fix the issue in another country(no day-1 patches here).
Being fully aware of all this, I have to say, none of that is my concern. What is my concern are the following things about the delays. The first delay wasn't announced until the end of the month it was supposed to come out, the second delay was clearly waiting until the end of the Red Ash kickstarter, this most recent delay, came about two weeks before the game was supposed to release, and also, the last two delays have been made over network issues most fans do not care about, without having an effect on the single player. Or at least, if it has had a problem, it hasn't been mentioned, which I think it would have been considering the fact that one of the biggest concerns about this delay that I'm about to get it to, was in fact released. That problem being, the game is being made on an engine that doesn't get updated anymore, meaning every problem that they have, they have to go in manually, find the problem, and fix it, which is why this is taking so long. An engine outdated enough to not be getting regular updates concerns me enough, but the lack of a release date, and the fact that this is literally just Mega Man with updated graphics, all point to the programmers possibly not being able to keep up with today's standards. This thing is basically an Indie, yet another delay, and it's bordering Duke Nukem Forever, FFXV, The Witness and other long delayed games for being delayed. This game is an indie though, with someone who used to be one of the top programmers heading the whole thing. The fact that it's taking this long, no matter how far deep the bug(s) go(es) is just sad. I understand that you can delay a game for several months or even a year or more, if when you think a game is almost done, you find a bug that you end up having to trace to near the start of the programming process and fix every issue from then to the end, but this is just getting stupid. An indie game should not take this much work, especially when they have a team like the one they have, and the creators of the Dead Island games helping them publish it. I just feel like there is more that can be done, but given how Infaune has already started with Red Ash and Re Core, it's not happening. None of is anything that can make anyone happy, probably Comcept's team as much as us, but this just seems all kinds of wrong. Unless the game ends up being Witcher complex, it all comes off as bad business practice being the main problem.

RE: Mighty No. 9 Delayed, again - Mass Distraction - 01-29-2016

I still think their main problem is the fact that they announced not just one but two new titles before their first, much anticipated one actually gets a definite release date. Just do that one thing first, then worry about the future. It's one thing to put all the eggs in one basket and a completely different thing to throw them all in the air and hope one of them lands safely.

RE: Mighty No. 9 Delayed, again - BumblebeeCody - 01-30-2016

(01-29-2016, 02:11 AM)RepentantSky Wrote: Being fully aware of all this, I have to say, none of that is my concern. What is my concern are the following things about the delays. The first delay wasn't announced until the end of the month it was supposed to come out, the second delay was clearly waiting until the end of the Red Ash kickstarter, this most recent delay, came about two weeks before the game was supposed to release, and also, the last two delays have been made over network issues most fans do not care about, without having an effect on the single player.
But at the same time, whether fans care about it or not, we're still at a point within gaming where day-1 patches are normal. It's now considered standard to sell a game with "known shippables" (a game with known bugs but will be fixing in the day 1 patch). The same can be said for this. It doesn't matter if the percentage of people who care about online is 5%, at the end of the day, people put their money into a project only to find they didn't even test the network capabilities correctly.
Now let's say that the game did in fact come out as it was supposed in February, then we find out an issue with the online has been found in the game, then the obviously backlash would be "Well they delayed the game and it's still buggy". We know gamers bitch like babies, so there is no real winning. Even the famous "delaying a game" quote by Shigeru Miyamoto doesn't even seem relevant anymore. Even A Hat in Time, a game that was kickstarted in 2013, is still in Beta and much like A Hat in Time you can actually play MM9 in it's current build to those who backed.

(01-29-2016, 02:11 AM)RepentantSky Wrote: That problem being, the game is being made on an engine that doesn't get updated anymore, meaning every problem that they have, they have to go in manually, find the problem, and fix it, which is why this is taking so long. An engine outdated enough to not be getting regular updates concerns me enough, but the lack of a release date, and the fact that this is literally just Mega Man with updated graphics, all point to the programmers possibly not being able to keep up with today's standards.
The fact that the game is being created on an engine that isn't used as much anymore isn't even true. UE3 is still one of the most widly used engines out there with no signs of support stopping, especially since the SDK is now free to use. Not to mention, it has a large amount of support for it. Much like Windows 7, it might be "outdated" but there isn't any issue you can't fix for that due to how long it's been out.

(01-29-2016, 02:11 AM)RepentantSky Wrote: This thing is basically an Indie, yet another delay, and it's bordering Duke Nukem Forever, FFXV, The Witness and other long delayed games for being delayed. This game is an indie though, with someone who used to be one of the top programmers heading the whole thing. The fact that it's taking this long, no matter how far deep the bug(s) go(es) is just sad. I understand that you can delay a game for several months or even a year or more, if when you think a game is almost done, you find a bug that you end up having to trace to near the start of the programming process and fix every issue from then to the end, but this is just getting stupid.
1) Keiji Inafune is and never was a programmer. He has not background in programming. He's a video game producer and illustrator but coding isn't his area.

2) It's hard to get this point across, but if anyone on this forum can be me up on this they'll agree, but programming never ends. If you fix one issue, it can result in a change somewhere else which results in the entire program having another issue that you need to fix. It's not rare and is to be expected. You fix one thing and then it results in a new issue.

(01-29-2016, 02:11 AM)RepentantSky Wrote: An indie game should not take this much work, especially when they have a team like the one they have, and the creators of the Dead Island games helping them publish it. I just feel like there is more that can be done, but given how Infaune has already started with Red Ash and Re Core, it's not happening. None of is anything that can make anyone happy, probably Comcept's team as much as us, but this just seems all kinds of wrong. Unless the game ends up being Witcher complex, it all comes off as bad business practice being the main problem.
We could make a discussion about whether this is an indie game or not, but from a veteran producer, I wouldn't really call this is an indie game as it's clearly being lead by industry veterans who know how to make a game. Compared to other games which are dudes in their basement living with each other with little to no budget like Hotline Miami.
It's worth noting that if you backed MM9, you are given newsletter updates which explains how the whole creation process is going and what the intentions behind their games are. Comcept are pretty transparent about how they work but the only thing that ever gets reported on is the delays but not what they do right.

I'm not completely defending this. I backed the game for around £80 and while I'm a lot more sympathetic and understanding as someone who works in the same area, it is pretty mishandled with some of the updates. I still didn't back Yooka-Layle, Shenmue 3 or Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night since I'm still waiting on MM9 to see if Kickstarting is worth it, but I'm still in the camp that I'd rather they make the best game they can rather than the broken buggy mess we get on such a level that we don't even notice the day 1 updates. I already expect MM9 to have a day-1 update.

RE: Mighty No. 9 Delayed, again - RepentantSky - 01-30-2016

Sorry but I can't agree with you at all there. Kickstarted games are more on the level of Indies unless they have a big company funding them most of the way like Shenmue 3 which clearly wasn't going to be made on the kickstarter alone. Just because you have a lot of experience in the industry and spent your own money to get a studio, doesn't mean you aren't an indie, even more so in a case like this because the level of programming to make a game like Mega man with updated graphics, which is what this is, is basically sitting on the level of Indie. The Internet portion obviously adds more work and programming to do, but again, that's something that most people, couldn't be paid to care about, and either way, that's not the point I'm concerning myself with. It's the poor way things are being handled and told to everyone who did back it, and even you seem a bit unhappy with what their telling you. I'll say it again, but if the game works fine in single player, release it and patch the online in later. If it really does come out with a day 1 patch, all the more reason to just release it now if it works. This has all just turned to a lot of crap being thrown at us for stupid reasons, you can't even justify defending it anymore.

RE: Mighty No. 9 Delayed, again - BumblebeeCody - 02-01-2016

(01-30-2016, 10:57 PM)RepentantSky Wrote: Sorry but I can't agree with you at all there. Kickstarted games are more on the level of Indies unless they have a big company funding them most of the way like Shenmue 3 which clearly wasn't going to be made on the kickstarter alone. Just because you have a lot of experience in the industry and spent your own money to get a studio, doesn't mean you aren't an indie, even more so in a case like this because the level of programming to make a game like Mega man with updated graphics, which is what this is, is basically sitting on the level of Indie.
Yeah I think you're technically right. Yes it's an indie game in that sense, but indie is usually (with exceptions) a game with a very low budget comprised of a small team who haven't really made a big game. So yeah, it's technically an indie game but due to the people working behind it, it's more of a smaller/bigger title. I dunno, semantics at this point. I'm not saying you're wrong on this.

(01-30-2016, 10:57 PM)RepentantSky Wrote: The Internet portion obviously adds more work and programming to do, but again, that's something that most people, couldn't be paid to care about, and either way, that's not the point I'm concerning myself with. It's the poor way things are being handled and told to everyone who did back it, and even you seem a bit unhappy with what their telling you.

The thing is, I'm unhappy about it, but I understand. The earlier a game comes out, the better. But as I've said before, I'm sick of paying full price for a game these day with day-1 patches, bugs, glitches and just completely broken aspects of games. Since MM9 is a game I backed, I would rather that Keiji Inafune puts all his effort into not rushing a game. If he says there is an issue with the game, we should at least understanding that a developer has no intention of shipping a game in a messy state until he is satisfied. I get the delay is annoying, but I feel far more respected as a fan and consumer that someone would be willing to make sure the game is at it's best before shipping.

(01-30-2016, 10:57 PM)RepentantSky Wrote: I'll say it again, but if the game works fine in single player, release it and patch the online in later. If it really does come out with a day 1 patch, all the more reason to just release it now if it works. This has all just turned to a lot of crap being thrown at us for stupid reasons, you can't even justify defending it anymore.
That's my point though, developers and publishers are doing that. This isn't a game built on the same grounds, but a game that was funded by us. As such, there is a responsability to be had with shipping a game with broken parts to it. As I said before, imagine the game did come out and the online had broken aspects regardless of whether the single player is fine. We'd have Kotaku articles stating: "Mighty Number 9 creator cuts corners", "MM9 has huge online bug preventing players from doing X", "MM9 has mandatory day 1 patch". The fact the game was funded on just over 3 million is nuts. That'll get you one space marine in any other game.

I'm not defending or ranting against any of it, but saying there has to be a level of understanding of the potential consequences. If the creator says it's not ready, it's not ready.