Many people (i.e. non-gamers) like to say that video games are empty, devoid of substance and meaning. I say that that's crap. Games can evoke many more feelings than just the satisfaction of completing a game. How could it not?

Games imitate life. Though the setting may be as fantastical as being Hero of Time traveling across the land and saving the world from evil in the Legend of Zelda or as close to reality as possible like a soldier combating terrorists in the Call of Duty series, their journey, their feelings speak to us. If it didn't, then that game would be a failure.

And there are so many literary, scientific, and philosophical elements within these games that if you are looking for them, you will find them. When I play the Legend of Zelda, I can see the Monomyth of the Hero's Journey. When I play Grand Theft Auto, I wonder does crime pay or does might make right? When I play Chrono Trigger, I wonder if time travel is actually possible and can I change the past?

So why am I creating this thread? Well, I want to share my ideas with my fellow gamers... to show that video games can create discussions of deep issues within the game...That it isn't just something we do to pass the time... that it is deeper than just the gameplay. And maybe, one day, create a youtube channel like the dykgaming channel and share my thoughts with a much wider audience.

I have no idea how this is going to go. I'm playing this by ear. Maybe in the coming days, there can be a forum for these topics. But for now, I'll post it here.

Here is a list of topics that I'll eventually discuss.

The Hero's Journey in the Legend of Zelda: Why we care whether or not Link succeeds

Infamous and the Morality System: Does it pay to be bad or is it better to be good

Metal Gear Solid: We love a good conspiracy theory

Chrono Trigger: Can we really change the past?

Final Fantasy X: How does Tidus know that he exists?

These are just a few ideas. I have Which would you like to read and discuss first? Let me know in this thread. Or if you have your our ideas, let me know as well. Together, we can prove that video games are much more than just pretty graphics and gameplay.

Okami's gotta be there for sure.

(03-18-2013, 10:27 PM)Hexadecimal Wrote: Okami's gotta be there for sure.

Any themes in there specifically that you would like me to research and discuss? I've not played that game at all but I can look up some game scripts and youtube videos.

(03-18-2013, 10:19 PM)Shinitenshi Wrote: If it didn't, then that game would be a failure.

This actually where games differ. Some games like Bayonetta/Final Fantasy/Street Fighter have crap stories, ones that are non-existent or just quickly slapped on but it's the gameplay that keeps us playing. Games don't necessarily have to have a good story in order to be good other games Fighting Games/Racing/Puzzle/ (and some others) would be classed as failures. But like I said, games differ because they offer more than what films have, and what they offer is feedback based on the users interaction; which you can't do with other forms of media such as films or music.

Stories in games quite often are some additional BS developers put on but don't put as the primary focus due to how games are and how they different from films.

Are they art? Sure. Zelda: Wind Waker has a generic story but I play it mainly for the gameplay and the amazing graphic style.

(03-18-2013, 10:19 PM)Shinitenshi Wrote: Together, we can prove that video games are much more than just pretty graphics and gameplay.

It wouldn't surprise me if games like: Crysis, Okami, The Wind Waker, El Shaddai, Uncharted, Journey, Unfinished Swan make this list for their graphics (and solid Gameplay), which kinda defeats the purpose of that statement.

(03-18-2013, 10:30 PM)BumblebeeCody Wrote: This actually where games differ. Some games like Bayonetta/Final Fantasy/Street Fighter have crap stories, ones that are non-existent or just quickly slapped on but it's the gameplay that keeps us playing. Games don't necessarily have to have a good story in order to be good other games Fighting Games/Racing/Puzzle/ (and some others) would be classed as failures. But like I said, games differ because they offer more than what films have, and what they offer is feedback based on the users interaction; which you can't do with other forms of media such as films or music.

Stories in games quite often are some additional BS developers put on but don't put as the primary focus due to how games are and how they different from films.

Perhaps I was a bit harsh in calling games failures if they don't reach us on an emotional level. And yes Fighters/Racers/Puzzles/Sports don't have stories but they can still be great. You are also right in saying that one of video games best features is feedback.

However, I don't believe that story and theme are just add-ons, something developers put in as an afterthought. I don't see it as a gimmick. While gameplay is the main focus, story and theme help sell the experience. What I am trying to get at is that there is much more to games than just the play part. In many adventure games, action games, RPGs, and others, there is a beginning, middle, and end. There is story. There is theme. There is mood. Story engages us, theme provokes discussion between us. It is deep.

That is what I am trying to get.

Yes, they are art.

but games are entertainment first and art second. A game has not failed if it lacks a relatable story, it has failed if I'm bored by the whole thing. A story is nothing but one way to allevaite that (and it is rather effective is played right, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon 2 is a game that would be awful if it wasn't for the story)

Anyway, why can't the gameplay/art style be considered art anyway? Gameplay the meat of the game, after all, and graphics are something that you'll be looking at throughout the game (even if they can get a bit overhyped) and there are many different ways to make a good game/art style.

I don't believe that games are art. I know this goes against many people here, but the game's main essence (players lose/win, rules) is not art-like. If games were to be considered as art, then trivial things such as throwing dices or coins should also be art.

The difference is that games involve more than one type of art. There is story, both in text and movies, there is music, there is visual art. So while games per se aren't art, it can be used to convey art. People can learn and earn culture with games the same way a movie or music would.

(03-18-2013, 11:03 PM)Shinitenshi Wrote:

(03-18-2013, 10:30 PM)BumblebeeCody Wrote: This actually where games differ. Some games like Bayonetta/Final Fantasy/Street Fighter have crap stories, ones that are non-existent or just quickly slapped on but it's the gameplay that keeps us playing. Games don't necessarily have to have a good story in order to be good other games Fighting Games/Racing/Puzzle/ (and some others) would be classed as failures. But like I said, games differ because they offer more than what films have, and what they offer is feedback based on the users interaction; which you can't do with other forms of media such as films or music.

Stories in games quite often are some additional BS developers put on but don't put as the primary focus due to how games are and how they different from films.

Perhaps I was a bit harsh in calling games failures if they don't reach us on an emotional level. And yes Fighters/Racers/Puzzles/Sports don't have stories but they can still be great. You are also right in saying that one of video games best features is feedback.

However, I don't believe that story and theme are just add-ons, something developers put in as an afterthought. I don't see it as a gimmick. While gameplay is the main focus, story and theme help sell the experience. What I am trying to get at is that there is much more to games than just the play part. In many adventure games, action games, RPGs, and others, there is a beginning, middle, and end. There is story. There is theme. There is mood. Story engages us, theme provokes discussion between us. It is deep.

That is what I am trying to get.

Completely agree.
But quite often games don't need a story in order to be good. There are plenty of games with meh stories added because the primary focus is gameplay.

Also, pretty much on the lines of what Gors said. I consider them more trans formative art but what is art nowadays anyway? What we're talking about is story telling as opposed to graphical beauty/visually appealing.

The definition of art seems to have been lost with gaming. Not that it seems important, I think it's now "gaming should be appreciated more than shrugged off".

I know this is gonna get some kind of backlash from some people, but I don't think you should talk about Infamous and its morality system. It's not a good system, as it forces you to choose between the extremes of good or evil. There is no gray area in the game. Sure, you could argue some of the things Cole does can be seen as morally gray from the player's perspective, but you still must choose one side or the other for Cole to do.

One game that I KNOW is an art game is Dear Esther. That game is gorgeous and also has a narrator who tells a different story each time you play. The game is also short like 2 hours or so.

A vg art topic where the host doesn't list Shadow of the Colossus. I am surprised. Honestly, my answer to anything regarding art or not is why not.

I don't really like getting into this argument, it just seems sort of pointless to me.
I like pretending to jump and shoot stuff, and when a game is well made it can be a lot of fun to do so, who cares if it's considered Art so long as you're having fun playing it?

I think games that are made to be games (putting gameplay at the forefront) can lead to something that can be considered art; but when a game is made for the sake of art, it sometimes can be a bit pretentious.

I think a game can be considered art, such as Journey or Dear Esther, but something like Call of Duty...I think not.

(03-19-2013, 04:09 PM)Blaquaza Wrote: I think that games that can really capture your feelings and make you feel how the characters feel are art. For example, in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon, I cried at the end and I was dying to see what would happen next, and I felt relieved when my Bulbasaur (Who was my Pokémon) ended up returning to the Pokémon World.

Then again, I do enjoy lots of Pokémon games anyway, mainly because how they can make you care for a cluster of pixels as if it was a real pet, like how I grow attached to Pokémon with nicknames (like my Female Unfezant called Audrey, named after a character in a BBC drama who looked like a pigeon) and even how I just like Pokémon based on their designs and how these designs themselves just give the Pokémon personality. I'm looking at you, Blaziken, Sceptile and Feraligatr.

There, that's my life story over. XD

ONE: Spoiler tags for those here who haven't played the beauty of Mystery
Dungeon.
TWO: I sort of agree here, the Mystery Dungeon series has surprisingly fantastic and immersive stories, and those can really pull you into the games.
CONFESSION TIME: I've never cried at any TV show or movie, and only twice to videogames. First was actually during the Mystery Dungeon ending (seriously guys, that ending is fucking depressing), the second time was near the end of Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days at the point where That also being said, the art debate is still a grey area, as apparently if games aren't art, they can move me more than anything considered Art can. You be the judge, imma go replay 358/2 Days because I hate myself.