Women in gaming

[Mass Distraction]

No, I'm not making a thread in the vein of the "girl gamers" questionnaire thing. I'm talking about actual female characters in games.

I find it ridiculous how some publishers actually think that a game with a female lead is less likely to sell than a game with a male lead. For this reason Remember Me was almost not published in the first place when the developers of it pitched it to multiple publishers and all of them threw them out when they heard the lead character was female. It was not until they pitched it to Capcom that the game actually got the publisher interest it needed and got made.

In addition to this, Last of Us dev team was told to put Ellie in the background and move Joel to the front in the game's cover and promotional art, because the higher ups feared that a female character in front would put gamers off from getting interested in the game. The developers even had to specifically ask to have female testers in addition to male because the company that did the testing only wanted to use male gamers and could not understand why they would want women to play it.

David Gaider, who has been writing Bioware's games for 14 years, had a good point in an interview I read. He responded to the subject on games with female leads that have failed: "What about the countless games with men as main characters that have failed? I think we all know that it's just bullshit."


I honestly have no clue why this is such a big deal in the gaming industry? What does it matter what gender the main character is as long as they are well written and the game in itself is FUN. Your thoughts?

[Psychospacecow]

Its just a corporate risk from people that don't play games. It'll fade in time.

[gamemaster1991]

Like I said in the female gamer thing, I hate sexism as it is really dumb and really just made to make the opposite sex look bad. Why? Are we still stuck in the 60's? I know women can't carry as much as a man naturally, but a man can't push out a baby. What makes a woman a worse character in a game?

I know we have Peach, DoA, and most of the Mortal Kombat characters to thank for setting gaming back 30 years but we are trying. Samus is a badass chick
who has had many games...... that most people have forget about. How about Bayonetta..... who is made to be sexualized. Lara Croft is someone who was made to be bad ass AND not made to be sexualized...... but still was.

You see how hard it is to find good examples. The only people that I can think of that are really good examples are Jill Valentine, Heather Mayson, Anya Stroud, and Cooking Mama, but Anya might have been a scrawny teen boy..... with boobs and Cooking Mama is Cooking Mama. I don't expect every single game have a strong female character, but if I can only name two good strong females THAT ARE LIKEABLE (seriously guys, there is sexism by making your character sexualized and then there is sexism by making your character so far in the closet they beat up men) you are doing something wrong.

Here is my final thought. Can we have a game with a good female character and a sexualized male? Video games are marketed towards men, but could it work the other way around to get female gamers? I probably wouldn't buy it, so I would be a part of the problem but I'm not female, so I have that for a reason.

[MexicanAnime]

@Gamemaster - Video games are not like what they were 10 years ago. They are now targetted towards a wider audience, ranging from different genders to age groups. There's a reason it's the highest selling entertainment industry, even surpassing movies and television.

Its just a corporate risk from people that don't play games. It'll fade in time.

While many people may not see it, we live in an age where we are becoming more tolerant and open to change old values/beliefs when it comes to people and their gender, race, and sexual orientation. I'm sure with that, it will soon start to pass onto different type of mediums and many won't see it as a risk anymore.

[Psychospacecow]

@Gamemaster - Video games are not like what they were 10 years ago. They are now targetted towards a wider audience, ranging from different genders to age groups. There's a reason it's the highest selling entertainment industry, even surpassing movies and television.

Its just a corporate risk from people that don't play games. It'll fade in time.

While many people may not see it, we live in an age where we are becoming more tolerant and open to change old values/beliefs when it comes to people and their gender, race, and sexual orientation. I'm sure with that, it will soon start to pass onto different type of mediums and many won't see it as a risk anymore.

Exactly.

[gamemaster1991]

Video games are not like what they were 10 years ago. They are now targetted towards a wider audience, ranging from different genders to age groups. There's a reason it's the highest selling entertainment industry, even surpassing movies and television.

I know that they are "trying" to market games to everyone, but I still just see the same over sexualized females to target the males and normal guys for the females. I was naming female charicters from games that I have seen and/or played, and with the exception of Jill Valentine, Heather Mayson, and Samus Aran (agien these are the only ones coming to mind for me), they are all the same. Ether the love interest to the male hero, a bitch to everyone/the villain, one of the "bros," or just there to be looked at. I'm just wondring why it can't be the other way around for a game. Just have the main Heroin be like avrage looking and have the male love intrest be just there to look at.

[CosmykTheDolfyn]

Women in games have never been that big of an issue for me. I mean, I most play racing games. The most sexist thing in racing games are pictures of half nude women on the car magazines in the Need For Speed games.

Which emulates real life. Look at the car/tuner mags you'll find in any auto parts store.

[gamemaster1991]

Women in games have never been that big of an issue for me. I mean, I most play racing games. The most sexist thing in racing games are pictures of half nude women on the car magazines in the Need For Speed games.

Which emulates real life. Look at the car/tuner mags you'll find in any auto parts store.

The only thing that I can think of for racing games is the flag girl from Crusin USA.


I really don't care about this.

[Dutchtica*]

I think it all depends on the character.
I mean you got the ones that are obvious eye candy and nothing else but a quest or a plot point or an objective, like your kidnapped damsel or the girls Leisure Suit Larry tries to get with, and the ones that are your heroines, like your Samus,

and to be honest,
I really don't care what I play as.

I've played a girl as a main for my Pokey Mans and when people asked me "Why?" I went "..'cause." or "I didn't like the design for the guy." (Seriously, Black and White 1/2? Dude bro's designs? Shit.)

To be honest, yeah, sometimes I give the occasional "PHWOAR" when a pretty fictional girl appears, but I don't play with my penis.
There's a reason why I don't own Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball or whatever it's called.

[Mass Distraction]

Peach, DoA, and most of the Mortal Kombat characters

What do you mean about that? I mean, sure, characters from DoA and MK wear skimpy clothing, but they're definitely badasses. Peach also kicks butt in Smash Bros.

I really don't think clothing is the main concern here.

[gamemaster1991]

Peach, DoA, and most of the Mortal Kombat characters

What do you mean about that? I mean, sure, characters from DoA and MK wear skimpy clothing, but they're definitely badasses. Peach also kicks butt in Smash Bros.

I really don't think clothing is the main concern here.

DoA Fighters are kickass, but what do you think of when you hear Kasumi and Ayane from Dead or Alive? Those two badass fighting ninjas? Most likely, you think of jiggle physics. I will say the Mortal Kombat was good to the female characters at the start ( Mileena was even a joke on the whole sexy fighter), but they seem to have gone to pandering to the male audience by giving every female character revealing clothing and jiggle physics, but I'll give you this one.

Now Peach. I knew someone was going to defeind Peach and/or bring up Zelda. I'm not couting SSB becuse everyone has the chance to be badass in Smash Bros, even Olimar. I had a confersayson with someone who said that Peach was an awesome character and Zelda sucked. I retorted the Peach has barly helped in her own seires. Off the top of my head she has helped in:
Mario 2 (playable), Mario 3 by giving Items, Mario RPG (playable after you rescued her), Mario Galixy by giving you 1-ups, Super Princess Peach and paper mario seires (after she is kidnaper). Say what you want about Zelda, at lest when she is kidnapped, it's mostly so Gannon can get his hands on the triforce, not becuse he's bored and wants to fight link. Zelda has hide the Triforce from Evil (Zelda 1 and 2), tried to stop Gannondorf before he could do damage to the land and gave you light arrows (OoT), Helped you fight by being a bad ass (WW), and helps though out the game WHILE BEING KIDNAPPED and than fights with you in the final battle (TP, Peach only did that in the spin-offs). I would name ST and SS but I never played them. If we count the spin-offs (which RPG and Paper are), out of the 3 games, Zelda was payable for 2 of them. I'm sorry but Peach is just a MacGuffin, not a bad ass.

[Mass Distraction]

Personally I indeed think of two badass fighting ninjas when someone mentions Ayane and Kasumi. I also associate them with Ryu Hayabusa. Maybe that's just because I love ninjas, though. Only when someone mentions Dead or Alive I think of jiggle physics.

Peach is kind of so and so for me and I only added her in my post when I remembered Smash Bros.


In any case, my point here is not the presentation of women in gaming but the fact that developers for some reason don't think female lead characters won't sell. Then again, you guys are free to discuss whichever.

[Psychospacecow]

See, as I see it, there is an underlining problem with this whole argument really. Its about gender, not about character. Why can't there be these sexy women or femme fatales or princesses in distress etc? Why can't there be strong women who are the heroes etc.? Why are these things put into such extremes?
Its not about gender, and that is the problem. It is about character. If we point at any one behavior and call it bad then we're missing the point. With Duke Nukem Forever, a lot of hate was had when Duke makes a joke about those two twins after they die horribly. You know what? That means the game did well. It just goes to show how crappy a person Duke actually is and it does so in a non-complex manner. You want a strong woman? Look at Samus, who demonstrates care, and yet recklessness by saving that one metroid. No character is perfect, and none ever will be. Whenever I hear these arguments, my problem is that people fight over how the character is portrayed, or about their genitalia. Frankly, it is counter-intuitive and just ruins the art of it all when people bend to it.

[gamemaster1991]

You are make the point I was (most likely failing at) trying to say. When we talk about a character, the sex is what most of us drive on. The female has to be the love interest, beautiful, and/or helpless, unless next to the hero. The male has a whole verity of things he can be. He can be handsome or ugly, smart or dumb, ect. Females rarely have a large chose of being less than beautiful. Name three woman that are average to ugly that are the hero (Mileena doesn't count).

It's not about looks either, it about how the character acts. Take Duke Nukem for example. You brought up Duke being a dick, but I bring up that the Twins really deserved it. They are just there for sex jokes and being sexy with no character to them. And yet we are suppose to feel bad when they die? I don't know about you, but I cheered when they died. As for Samus, she is only a good character when she does not talk, according to everybody ever. I say shut up and let a female tell us why she's sad and not have us look at her like a bitch in a space suit. I find the best of her stories are fusion, Super, and another one that I can't think of at the moment, since there are at lest three games that show us interacting with other things to show off her personality (has had a friend once, has a mothering nature to her, and works well in a team). With games like the original game and prime, she looks like a one (wo)man army that cares very little about anything. I know it's a take on aliens, but Ripley at lest had people to work on for most of them movie to show us who she was. Most gamers like her because of the zero suit anyway.

[Psychospacecow]

Now if you want an example, look at Kinsie in Saint Row 3. She's a former FBI agent, socially awkward and master hacker.

Another one, Joanna Dark from Perfect Dark.

Another one, Talim from Soul Calibur. All she has interest in is people's safety. She's an orphan who protects orphans and can take down a giant demon in azure armor holding a 10 ft long manifestation of evil in blade form.

Another, Dagger from Final Fantasy 9.

Another, Lucca from Chrono Trigger.

Kid from Chrono Cross.

Anya from Gears of War

Cass from Fallout New Vegas

Zoey and Roshell from Left 4 Dead.

If you don't think there aren't many strong women in games then you aren't playing the right ones. I named these off the top of my head, and for that matter, Samus is as awesome with or without that zero suit. (Main reason, she's a walking arsenal in the actual non-spandexy suit)

There will always be other examples in games for both sides. Sitras and Mileenas, Dukes and Marcuses.